Second Shetland Truck System Report Part 354

15,084. Would it not be a system of paying weekly wages, with an additional payment in proportion to the produce?-It would not be wages: it would be a weekly payment for produce, because weekly wages would never do.

15,085. Would it not virtually be wages, with a bonus on the amount of the produce besides?-I suppose it would; but wages are a different thing from paying a man for what he delivers to you. If you pay a man wages, he may turn lazy and do nothing, and you cannot be looking after him when he is at the fishing.

15,086. But this would be a payment of wages, and something more. He would have an inducement to work in order to increase the total produce at the end of the season?-That might be so; but I have thought over the subject, and I see no other way in which the system can be worked than it is at present. The law will be complied with nominally, but matters would fall back into their old state.

15,087. But if the law only required a certain proportion to be paid at short intervals, could it not be complied with, not only nominally, but substantially, in that way, and still recognise such an arrangement as [Page 381] you consider would be necessary?- It might be, but it would be a very disagreeable and a very difficult thing to carry out. It would be hardly possible to arrange the price that, was to be paid for the fish during the course of the season.

15,088. Would the price not always be very considerably below what the fish were expected to realize?-Supposing the price in a number of years had been, on an average, 7s. or 8s. per cwt. for ling, probably both curers and fishermen might agree to fix 5s. 6d.

as the rate at which the men were to be paid in the course of the season, reserving to them a further payment, according as the fishing turned out?-Yes, it might be managed in that way quite well; but then what would the people do before they got any fish ash.o.r.e at all? How would they be able to live then?

15,089. I suppose the object of the Legislature would be to teach them to lay by something on which they might be able to live when they were not actually at the fishing?-That might be the object, but the people might die in the teaching. It is all very well to come down and see the country in a year like this, when money has been flush; but if you had seen such a year as 1868 or 1869 or 1870, when the people were coming to you in January starving, and wanting you to advance them meal and other things, and a big debt standing against them at the same time in the merchant's books, you would have seen that it was not such a matter of plain sailing then.

15,090. Don't you think that even at that season the fishing might have been prosecuted to some extent?-No; there was nothing to catch. Besides, a good crop makes a great difference in Shetland.

I don't think I bought thirty bolls of meal in the south country last year, but I was buying 300 or 400 for the same number of men in those years. Still, although the men are in such distress in bad years, I think you ought to know what an amount of money some of the fishermen have lying in the Union Bank, on deposit receipt.

You would find then that they are not so poor as they have been represented.

15,091. Do you think most of the deposits in the banks here under 100 belong to fishermen?-I think so.

15,092. Do you also think that a number of the deposits above that sum belong to people of the same cla.s.s?-I am satisfied of that.

15,093. In short, you think that almost all the deposits in the banks here must be those of fishermen?-I think most part of them are those of fishermen, crofters, and small tenants throughout the country; because I think that any person who had acc.u.mulated more than that sum would be likely to invest it in some more remunerative way than to leave it on deposit receipt in the bank.

When people have been told in the public prints that a Shetlander nearly loses his head when he sees a 1 note, it is very important that there should be some inquiry on that subject.

15,094. Do you think that men who are indebted to you, for instance, or to any other person engaged in business, and getting advances in the course of the year, are likely to have deposits in the bank?-I don't think that. I could tell over the names of the men upon my property who I suppose have deposits; but I am perfectly satisfied that none of those who are indebted to me have any deposits at all.

15,095. It has been alleged that a fisherman might get advances from the merchant who employs him, although he had a deposit receipt in the bank, especially in a distant place, where it would cost some trouble to him to go to his bank and get his deposit receipt altered. Do you think he would do so if he only wanted a small sum?-I believe that to a certain extent he would. I believe that he might take advances from his landlord's shop during the season, although he had a deposit receipt, if he saw that he could get the things as moderate upon credit from his landlord as he could elsewhere, paying for them at the end of the year. That is sometimes done when the men want a boat. There are tenants of mine without means of their own, who have come to me and said they wanted a new boat. I would ask them who was to pay for it, and they would tell me that some of the men to whom the boat was to belong were not able to pay for then, although others might be able to pay their share; and it was better for the whole of them to pay their shares at the end of the season, because the men who had the money would have got no advantage by paying it at the time.

15,096. But do you think a man would stand permanently in arrear at settlement with you if he had money in the bank?-No; but if I settle with him in January, I believe he would go and deposit a 10 note from that year's settlement, and begin a new account with me, and get a new boat, and let it stand to his credit until next year.

But he would never think of having a permanent running balance with me if he had money of his own in bank.

15,097. Is it a general thing among the men to go and deposit some of their money in bank and begin a new account with you?-Yes, I believe they do that for a single year. They would be great fools if they did not. They keep a pa.s.s-book, if they choose, with the shop, and they would be no better off if they were to pay for their goods in money.

15,098. Would they not be better off if they could get their goods cheaper for cash?-I don't know that they could do that. I cannot get the things any cheaper from the Lerwick dealers for cash. I pay my accounts here every six weeks, and get only 2s. 6d. or so off 4 or 5.

15,099. But are not the prices in Lerwick lower than they are in your quarter?-I don't think so. I think I am selling as low as they do in Lerwick, and sometimes even lower. Mr. Gavin Henderson's shop is near ours, and he acts as a powerful pressure upon us.

15,100. Do you sometimes exact liberty money?-I have exacted liberty money two or three times from landholders. I don't take it from young men-only from landholders. Three guineas is what I fixed it at, but I asked a pound only for the last man who fished off the property. His name was James Shewan; and I told him this year that he could fish for nothing, because I wanted his land to put a few sheep on. He is going to fish for nothing this year, and he is to leave at Martinmas.

15,101. That is to say, he is to fish to any party for nothing?-He can fish to any person he likes. I believe in the evidence which has been given, mention was made of a lad Thomas Johnston not getting liberty to go home to his father's house because he was fishing for another curer. The understanding I have with the tenants is, that I expect them all, both young men and old, to fish for me, on condition that I pay them as well as any other person; and I want to put as much pressure as I consider reasonable upon them for that purpose. But young men are not to be bound always to fish at the home fishing, and sometimes there may not be a way suitable for them; and I have told them all in such a case that they could go to Faroe or to Greenland, or go out of the parish into the next parish, and prosecute the fishing there. This lad Johnston, who was the son of a man considerably indebted to me, went down to the other side and fished to Messrs. Hay & Co., and I daresay I did come pretty hard down upon the father for allowing his son to go away. The result was, that the lad spent his winter about a mile and a half or two miles from his father's house in service there, but he has been back since then. On other occasions two or three young men have left the parish when they could not get a convenient boat in it, and gone to Dunrossness to the fishing, and I have never said anything to them about it. There is one lad who is to fish for Mr. Bruce in a boat's crew of his in the incoming season, and I have made no objection to it.

15,102. There was another case mentioned in the previous evidence also-that of a man named Williamson, at Berlin. It was said his son was engaged to a neighbouring crofter as a servant, and that he had been obliged to leave that and come to your employment as beach boy for a lower wage?-I cannot tell anything [Page 382] about that; but, as a rule, I expect the boys to serve me at the beach on the usual terms. I always make a point of informing them in plenty of time, perhaps about August, that I will require so and so the following year, so that they may not make any other engagement. If such a thing took place with Williamson's son, I never heard of it. I had a boy named Williamson in my employment at the beach last season, and I suppose he was a son of old James Williamson's, but I knew nothing about him having been previously engaged to another service. With regard to liberty money, I may say that in 1867 Charles Eunson paid me over 3 or three guineas; and John Flawes. I think they fished to me in the following year.

15,103. One complaint made by the men with regard to the price paid to them for their fish, was that some neighbouring curers at Sandwick, Thomas Tulloch and James Smith, paid 9d. per cwt.

more for ling, and also an additional price for other fish above what is called the current price: can you explain how that arises?- I can explain how the current price, according to which we pay, is fixed, but I don't understand how Tulloch and Smith can pay the price they do. If you can investigate that and let us see it in the blue-book, we will perhaps get a wrinkle out of it; but we cannot understand it in the meantime. What I promise to my fishermen, and what I promise any stray boats that come to me-and I have three or four boats fishing to me just now from Simbister property-is, that whatever Messrs. Hay & Co., Mr. John Bruce, Mr. John Robertson, and Mr. Mullay pay, will be paid by me also.

Mr. Tulloch and Mr. Smith are no guide to me with regard to the price which I am to pay; and I tell the men they must go to them if they want their price.

15,104. Can you account for their higher prices by the fact that they sell, not to wholesale dealers as the larger merchants do, but to retail purchasers, and thus get both the retail and the wholesale profit?-That may account for it. I know that Tulloch's boat is coming up to Lerwick every week during the summer with casks of fish for retail dealers. Of course, when I am shipping 100 tons, I must allow a middle-man to take them, and he must have his profit; but I have nothing to do with how Tulloch manages his business.

15,105. Do communications pa.s.s between you and the other fish-curers as to the price of fish before you settle with your fishermen?-The fact is, that I have always found it the most difficult thing possible to make out what price they were going to pay. One curer may get a sort of a pull over another if he pays 6d. or so above the market price but that leads to very disagreeable feelings. I have asked Hay & Co. repeatedly what price they were to pay, and they have given me no answer; and I have actually found the current price by taking care to be about the last who sold, and seeing what my neighbours had got before me. At the present time I have squared up my books at a certain price; but Mr John Bruce has not settled yet, and if he pays 2d. or 3d. above me I shall have to turn my books over again and pay that additional. I have always been the second last in settling, just in order that I might see what my neighbours were to pay. One year I settled before Hay & Co.'s people, and they paid 2d. a gallon on the livers above me. I paid that up on the next year's livers, and lost a 10 note on the transaction.

15,106. Do you find the fishermen a difficult people to deal with?-Exceedingly.

15,107. Do they make many inquiries as to the prices at which you have sold the fish, or ask to see your accounts?-No. They begin to understand about the end of the season what the price is to be which they are to get. As a general rule we tell them that they will get what other people are getting, and they will hear in time enough; but they never think of asking what I am getting for the fish myself. The Faroe fishers are the only people who would be disposed to be troublesome in that way, because they are ent.i.tled to one half of the proceeds of the fishing.

15,108. Have you anything to do with the Faroe fishing?-I have one vessel there; but I don't supply the men with goods. Messrs.

Hay or Mr. Leask have been the agents for that; and I merely interpone my security, and pay cash for the goods, without a penny of profit upon them.

15,109. Do you give security to Messrs. Hay or Mr. Leask for the advances which they make to your fishermen?-Yes; they are debited to me.

15,110. Are the fishermen aware that such security is given and that they can get advances at these shops?-Yes. Of course I speak to one of Mr. Leask's men, and tell him that they are not to advance the men beyond a certain amount, for fear of them going over the line.

15,111. Do you get no commission upon their transactions at these shops?-Not one farthing.

15,112. Do the fishermen in the Faroe trade require any exhibition of the bills of sale?-I do not know. I never was asked to exhibit my bills of sale; but they know exactly what the prices are. There are people going back and forward to Leith who know exactly what we get.

15,113. Are the fish sold by public sale in Leith?-No.

15,114. Are they sold by commission agents there?-We have often to sell them direct. It is a miserable thing to put them into a commission agent's hands. We try to make the best bargain we can with the middle-men from Glasgow or Belfast.

15,115. Is there a traveller who comes round and purchases the fish in Shetland?-They very often come round for that purpose.

Lerwick, January 30, 1872, WILLIAM SIEVWRIGHT, examined.

15,116. You are a solicitor in Lerwick?-I am.

15,117. Do you act as factor on the property of Mrs. Budge, Seafield?-Yes; I have been so for about two years, or something like that.

15,118. [Shown letter from witness to William Stewart, Kirkabister, dated 22d November 1870, quoted in Stewart's evidence, question 8917]-Did you write that letter?-Yes.

15,119. Have you anything to say with regard to it?-All I have to say is, that the Thomas Williamson mentioned in the letter had been carrying on a small business at Seafield, and the tenants had taken a prejudice against him, and did not wish to do any business with him; the result of which was that he had resolved, or pretty well resolved, to leave the place, and the business premises were likely to be shut up in consequence. Before writing the letter, I had seen several of the tenants there, and particularly William Stewart, who was a leading man among them, and had endeavoured to overcome that prejudice. I told them that Mrs. Budge expected that they would, in her interest, fish to the tenant of the business premises upon equal terms-that is to say, if they could arrange with him upon as favourable terms as with any other body, but not otherwise. They seemed to acquiesce in that, or at any rate did not take any objection to it after I had explained the matter to them; and I believe they have been thoroughly satisfied with their transactions. I may explain further, that most of these tenants, or at least many of them, were in debt, some of them to a large extent, for land rent; and I thought it only reasonable that if they could a.s.sist the proprietor, they should do so. There was no compulsion, in the proper sense of the word.

The tenants understood quite well that it was merely if they could make a bargain as favourable with Williamson as with any other body that they were to do that.

15,120. Did Williamson become responsible to the proprietor for the rent?-No.

15,121. Has it been paid through him?-I don't think so. Perhaps a few of the tenants have paid it through [Page 383] him, but he certainly was not responsible for it in any way. At any rate, I did not make him bound.

15,122. Do the tenants ever pay their rents directly to you?-Yes.

Occasionally they hand them in to Mrs. Budge, who sends the money to me; but the settlements are all made by me.

15,123. How many tenants are there on that property?-I think altogether there are 25 or 26.

15,124. Have they any leases?-No; they are just yearly tenants.

The proprietor was very anxious to give them leases, but she is only a liferenter herself, and she cannot give them the warrandice they should have.

15,125. How many of these tenants are fishermen?-I think there should be perhaps 15 or 16 of them, but I cannot be positive as to that. I believe Williamson has two boats manned from among them.

15,126. Has he also a shop?-Yes, a small shop.