Second Shetland Truck System Report Part 253

10,525. Did you find that it worked fairly well with you?-I had not enough experience of it to say that, because the other system had been so long in existence that it was difficult to make an exception.

10,526. You mean that the credit system has prevailed so long, and is so deeply rooted in Shetland, that it was difficult to carry on business in any other way-Yes.

10,527. Have you formed any conclusions on that subject which you are now prepared to state?-My own conviction is, that if a ready-money system was once in operation, and had a fair start, it would work better than the present system.

10,528. But how are you prepared to give it a start?-I think that if the men were paid their money monthly or fortnightly, that would make them feel their independence better. Perhaps they would husband their means better; and if there were those among them who were careless about it, they would be taught a lesson when the year was done, which would serve as a warning for them in time to come. There might, however, be a difficulty in beginning such a system. I can remember, and others present will remember it too, two or three years of bad fishing, followed by a year of blight, when the man who wrought most anxiously and was honest-hearted could not meet the demands upon him.

At such times, if there was no qualification or mitigation of the ready-money system, perhaps the men might get into difficulty.

10,529. But do you not think that with that system of fortnightly payments a respectable fisherman and tenant would get credit just as easily as he gets it now?-I believe he would.

10,530. From a greater number of persons, and on more advantageous terms?-I think he would.

10,531. Do you think there would be more places open to respectable fishermen, at which they could get credit if it was absolutely required in a bad season?-Yes.

10,532. I suppose in a bad season now no merchant would give credit to the fishermen unless he was secure of their services for next season?-I should suppose so.

10,533. Therefore the fishermen, as a rule, are shut up to the one shop?-Yes, it comes to that.

10,534. Where fishermen were paid monthly or fortnightly, and you knew a man to be a respectable man, would you, as a merchant, have any hesitation in a bad season in giving him a reasonable amount of credit for the support of his family?-I would have no hesitation in doing that at all, and I have done it.

10,535. Even under the old system?-Yes, under the old system.

I have done so, from a charitable feeling for the men in their necessities.

10,536. Did you think that in such cases you were likely to be repaid?-In some cases I saw the urgency of the case, and I gave the man supplies from sympathy, whether I might be paid for them or not.

10,537. But do you think you would be more likely to obtain repayment if there was an open system, and the whole country was not monopolized by one or two great firms?-I think so; because if the men were paid their money I think they would feel more independent, and they would, so to say, eke out that money in the most economical way, and thus be better off.

10,538. Probably, also, they would not be encouraged to run so very much into debt with any merchant as they are at present?- I think they would not. If the system were altered, and cash payments introduced, I think the men would feel that they could not ask credit to such a large extent as they do now, except in cases of urgent necessity.

10,539. So that, if these very large accounts were not incurred, the ordinary merchants, fairly competing, would not run so much risk?-I think so.

10,540. Do you think the large credits given by the fish-curing firms tend to increase the risk to the small merchant in the country who does not engage in fishcuring?-It may do so. I know that after the years of bad fishing, followed by a year of blight which I have mentioned, or emergencies like that, the merchants, such as Spence & Co., and others, had to lay out a great deal of money from the urgent necessity of the case, and to supply families who were almost starving.

10,541. Has it been your experience that it is difficult for small merchants to begin business and to succeed in Shetland?-I cannot say that I have had much experience of that.

10,542. Are you aware that some merchants have lately been obliged to give up their business in Unst, in consequence of the monopoly which had been obtained by a single firm?-I have heard that stated; but I had a lease of the place where I lived, and that did not apply to me.

10,543. You gave up business voluntarily?-Yes. I found a farm necessary for my family, and I thought I would be better with it.

10,544. Do you think there has been a great improvement in the condition of the people within the last twenty or thirty years?-I think there has been.

10,545. Have they got more money in their hands?-I believe the present year has been a very good one [Page 256] for them; but there were some seasons, a few years back, when it was different.

A great deal depends upon the returns from the fishing.

10,546. But, apart from the variableness of seasons-because the seasons have always been variable-and taking the state of Shetland now and twenty or thirty years ago, do you think there has been an improvement for the better?-I cannot say there has been much in the way of improvement. Perhaps there has been some.

10,547. Are the people more independent now than they were then?-I cannot say as to that.

10,548. Do you think they are as dependent now as ever?-I cannot say; the thing is so much fluctuating, because it depends upon a year or two of failure in fishing and blight, and that brings them down.

10,549. About twenty or thirty years ago were not many of the people bound to fish for their landlords or tacksmen?-I think they were. That was the case twenty years ago fully more than it is now.

10,550. At that time they were actually bound by the conditions under which they held their land?-I understand so.

10,551. But now they are told they are free?-Yes. They know now that they are at liberty to fish to whom they please; but I don't know if that was the general notion before.

10,552. That is, that they will not be turned out of their land if they comply with certain regulations on certain estate

10,553. But suppose Mr. Johnston were to start half a dozen boats, would he get them manned?-I don't know whether he would get so many as that, but he might.

10,554. Suppose you were to start half a dozen boats, could you get them manned?-I cannot say.

10,555. Has anybody tried that within the last half dozen years?-I am not aware that it has been tried. I believe the men understood that they were bound to fish for the merchants who supplied them with boats, and who gave them supplies for their families, and they did not like to make a change. But now, when the men know that they have their liberty so far, I suppose they would be inclined to go to the merchant who offered them the highest price for their fish.

Baltasound, Unst, January 19, 1872, JOHN SPENCE, examined.

10,556. You are the senior partner of the firm of Spence & Co?-I am.

10,557. You have heard the evidence which has been given by Mr.

Sandison and Mr. Mouat?-Yes.

10,558. Is there anything which you wish to explain further, or to add to their evidence?-Perhaps I may be allowed to read a letter which I wrote some time ago, and which shows my views and the company's views with regard to the state of matters. It is a letter which was written by me to the other members of the company, and it is dated 29th January 1870. It is as follows:

'Dear Sirs,-I have often spoken to you about adopting a cash system in all our dealings with the people but none of you seemed to think it would do. I of course would not press it in the meantime, though I am always more convinced that it would be a much better system than the present, and we should be gainers by it to a very great extent, if wrought as it should be; and, depend upon it, it will have to come in, and that not long to the time, whether we will or not; so I would advise you to consider over it more than you have done. It will take no more capital, but even less than the present system does.

'If after further consideration, you still think it would not do, could it not then be possible that the price of fish could be fixed at the commencement of the fishing? Be a.s.sured that we will be forced into this, whether we will or not; and certainly it would be the proper way. The price of everything else that we deal in is generally fixed or agreed upon when the transaction is made, and why not do so with fish? We do it with winter fish, and what is to hinder us to do it with the summer ones? In no other part of the world that we know of is there such a system as we have. Look at the herring-curers south: I believe herrings would never keep at such a high price were it not that the price is fixed at the first. If we were to do the same with our fish, I have not the least hesitation in saying that we should have them all away and into cash as fast as they could be dried, because we should never keep them on hand when we could get a safe price for them; and the fact that we had got a certain price before we could be safe, would prompt us the more to seek to obtain it, and buyers would come to terms more quickly; indeed, the moment we agreed with the fishermen, we could at same time almost enter into a contract with a buyer or buyers for all our catch. It is often seen what a disagreeable thing it is to keep a large parcel of fish hanging on in the face of a fluctuating market, the chance being oftener against us than in our favour; and fish, in particular, being such a perishing article, the risk is very often great. Many other things could be brought in in support of our fixing the price of green fish when the fishing begins. If you do not think we could begin to it alone, it could only be a trial to correspond with all the other curers, and see if they would not join with Hay & Co., Adie, Anderson, Pole & Hoseason, and any other you know of, and make the proposal.

Have a meeting of all the curers, say at Voe, or wherever it might be thought best, and try the thing. I am fully persuaded that circ.u.mstances, and that not long to the time, will compel us to it, if not to the cash system.

'Notice around you even and see how things are tending, and see how opposition is creeping in-of course against us. The old system we keep is the cause of it, to a good extent at least. Mr.

Sandison should correspond with some of the other curers; or could you not ask Mr. Adie to come to Unst? I think we often spoke of doing that before. I suppose he is friendly enough to us.

I am almost sure he would join us in the movement, and Pole & Hoseason would do it, also Mr. Henderson. I trust you will give this matter your consideration, if it should come no further.

Shetland is behind it long long way, and a new kind of political economy is needed for it; and why should we not make the trial?- When we formed into a company, everybody was made to understand that there would be improvements in many things- which I hope there is-but we should go forward, and not stand still.'

The whole of us, as a company, were very anxious to adopt this system, but there were a great many difficulties that came in our way which we could scarcely control.

10,559. Were these difficulties raised on the part of the men?- Not exactly. The men were anxious for the change, but they were misled and influenced, and we could not get a fair start. With regard to the old system of what may be called truck, I have looked into my books about forty years ago, and I see that it was the habit of all the fishermen then to prefer putting their produce into the hands of the dealers, and leaving it there till the end of the year for settlement. That has been altered by various things. I object to the great number of small dealers, because I don't think they develop the resources of the island to such a degree as they might; but if a large firm or firms, with the tenants in their own hands, and who are possessed of capital were to set about doing that, the resources of the island could be far more easily developed.

10,560. Would a large firm of that kind, engaged in fish-curing, not make a fair profit, and carry on business in a satisfactory way, if it left the supply of shop goods, draperies, and provisions to other dealers? Is it impossible in Shetland to separate between the fish merchant's business and that of the drapery or provision dealer?-I think it is perfectly possible; and I think it would be the proper plan, that the fish-curing and dealing [Page 257] should be perfectly distinct; but then there would require to be special arrangements made for that purpose, in order to get it into working order for the benefit of all cla.s.ses.

10,561. I suppose that at the summer stations, however, it is quite necessary that the fish-curer should keep a supply of provisions for his men?-Yes.

10,562. But when the men are in their own homes, would it not be quite possible for them to get their supplies from the ordinary shops supported by private enterprise throughout the country, without having recourse to the man who was employing them?- Of course it would; and if that system was honestly carried out the men would benefit by it, but if the trade was carried on by small shops, looking only to pounds, shillings, and pence, that would do the people injury.

10,563. In what way?-Because it would increase the number of small shops; and, as I say, these cannot develop the resources of the island as they ought to do. They would only be drawing means from the people which they could not apply in a proper way. For instance, take the herring fishing: Messrs. Hay & Co. are the princ.i.p.al herring-curers, and no small dealer could carry on that business in the way they do. They are carrying it on just now at a very heavy sacrifice, year after year, in the expectation that the herring will come; but if Messrs. Hay & Co. were to give up the business, and it were to fall into the hands of small dealers, there would be n.o.body to receive herrings when they did come.

10,564. Is not the herring fishing carried on only from Lerwick?- It is sometimes carried on from here, when there are herrings on the coast.