Second Shetland Truck System Report Part 198

8019. But you are speaking of those who are in debt: what may be the proportion who are in that position?-I could not give an accurate answer as to the extent to which a state of permanent indebtedness prevails; but I know that it prevails to a much larger extent than is good for the community.

8020. Do you think it prevails to a larger extent here than in other districts of the country?-I don't think so.

8021. I meant than in other parts of Scotland, not of Shetland?-I am not very well acquainted with the extent to which a credit system prevails in Scotland.

8022. But you think it prevails to such an extent here as to be injurious to the independence of the people?-I think so; at least to the independence of some of the people.

8023. Do you think it tends to injure their truthfulness?-I don't know to what extent it will do that; but I think that, to some extent, when a man gets into arrears beyond what he is able to meet, he is apt to lose heart, and to come short of what he might otherwise do to clear himself.

8024. Have you known cases of that description?-I don't know to what extent cases of that description may prevail, but I know that there are a good many people who are living this year on their next year's earnings, and perhaps on the earnings of a year or two in advance of that.

8025. These are cases within your own knowledge, in which you have derived your information from the parties you speak of?- Yes.

8026. They have admitted it to you?-Yes, in one way or another.

I have gained some of my knowledge from the merchants themselves, and some from the people.

8027. I suppose that sometimes, in the course of your ministrations, you have occasion to inquire a little into the circ.u.mstances of the men?-Yes, sometimes.

8028. In a letter which you wrote in reply to circular received from me, you gave an opinion about some proposed method of improvement which had for its object a separation between fishing and farming?-I have heard such a thing proposed. It has been discussed in the public press.

8029. Do you think the fishing could be carried on here apart from farming?-I do not. I think the fishermen could not live without their farms.

8030. Are they in a different position from the fishermen on the east coast of Scotland, in Aberdeenshire or Banffshire, who have no farms, and who live very comfortably, as I understand, by fishing alone?-I think they are in a very different position from these fishermen. One reason for that is, that there are frequent seasons occurring when there are no fish on the Shetland coast.

Another reason is, that Shetland is very far from the market; and even although fish could be got, they could not be brought to market at a season when an adequate return could be got for them.

8031. But the curing might proceed in winter as it does in summer?-It might, but the fishermen would not be able, as a rule to keep themselves alive in winter by fishing alone.

8032. Do you mean that they would be much more interrupted by the weather in winter than in summer?-They would be much more interrupted by the weather, and they would have less chance of fish.

8033. Are you aware whether winter fishing has been tried in Shetland on a large scale?-Yes; not on a large scale, but it has been tried pretty extensively. I know that from my own experience. I tried it myself from the time when I could handle a boat oar, until I was twenty-seven years of age. During that time I was at the fishing every day, summer and winter, when it was fishing weather, and living in the midst of the ocean; and I have no hesitation in saying that if fishermen had been dependent on fishing alone, they would have died from sheer want, leaving their families out of the question altogether.

8034. But at that time were there any appliances for sending out large boats such as are now sent out in summer, and for curing the fish when brought home?-Yes, there were appliances for curing the fish when brought home; and little boats are much more handy about the Shetland coast than large boats at that season of the year.

8035. Do you think, as regards the hosiery trade, that it would be expedient for cash to be paid instead of goods as at present?- Sometimes it would be a convenience to the people to get cash, but generally speaking, I believe it would make very little difference. For instance, if a woman goes into a merchant's shop with so much hosiery, and she wants so much goods which the merchant can supply, she may just as well get them from him as from anybody else.

8036. But supposing the woman did not want goods?-Supposing she wants money, it would certainly be more convenient for her to get the money.

8037. Is it the case, so far as you know, that the people are often in want of money, and cannot get it?-I have not been aware of any particular case in which a little money was wanted and could not be got; but, as a general rule, money has never been paid for hosiery in Shetland.

8038. Are you of opinion that cases of hardship are not likely to occur in consequence of the want of money?-I could not give a positive answer to that question. I have heard the women complain more of there being two prices than of any difficulty in getting money.

8039. The two prices you refer to are the cash price and the price in goods?-Yes.

8040. What is their complaint with regard to that?-They think hosiery is sold at a disadvantage, when goods are so much dearer because bought with hosiery. That is the princ.i.p.al cause of complaint that I have heard of.

8041. Is it understood that the goods are dearer, because they are bought with hosiery?-That is generally [Page 196] understood; at least in some places. There are some merchants who make it all one price together; the same when hosiery is paid for the goods as when they are paid for in cash.

8042. Is that not the case with all?-It is not universally the case,

8043. Therefore there are not only two prices for hosiery, but there are two prices for goods bought with hosiery?-Yes; in some places there are.

8044. Are you aware of that from your, own knowledge, or is it merely from a complaint among the women?-It is a complaint among the women, and I think there is justice in it.

8045. That is, if it exists?-Yes; and I think it does exist in some places.

8046. Are you aware from your own knowledge that it does exist?-I think I am pretty certain of it.

8047. Do you think a system of credit payments and of paying for hosiery by goods has the effect of raising the prices of goods upon the whole community?-I don't think the hosiery has any effect of that description at all, so far as I know, but I think the credit system must have that effect in a greater or less degree. Under that system I think the credit which is most hopelessly given is in meal.

The fish-curer often finds himself in the greatest difficulty with a family who are perhaps in want, and have no means to purchase meal. In that case he is frequently obliged, out of compa.s.sion, to give out meal for which he hardly expects to receive anything; or if he does, it is a long time before it comes.

8048. In such a case is the fisherman not under a sort of obligation to fish for that merchant during the next year, and until his debt is liquidated?-I think he is under such an obligation, but in some cases it takes a long fishing before the debt is liquidated.

8049. Do you think it is wholesome for a man to be under such a permanent obligation to fish for the same party?-I don't think it is wholesome for either party. But there is no help for it.

8050. Does that produce a spirit of submission and dependence on the part of the fishermen towards the merchant?-I don't know, but to some extent it must.

8051. Have you known any case in which that became very evident?-I cannot say. I could not name any particular case.

8052. You have not been struck by that in the course of your experience?-No. I have a considerable amount of acquaintance both here and in the north part of the islands of Shetland, and I cannot say that I have been struck with any such spirit of dependence. In the nature of things, however, it must exist more or less. But, in my opinion, the better way to get rid of it would be for the people to grow their own meal, and require less of it to be supplied to them.

8053. Do you mean that it would be an advantage if they required to purchase less meal than they do now?-Yes. I cannot see how the system can be got rid of, unless the people are able to cultivate their land, and grow their own meal.

8054. Therefore you are inclined to recommend a system of agricultural improvement as the best thing for Shetland?-Yes.

8055. Could that be effected without a separation between the fishing and the farming?-I think so. I think if people were placed in such security that they knew they were working for themselves, so that they could spend every day or every hour that they had leisure in improving their small crofts of land, they might grow half as much again as they do at present.

8056. Even upon their small holdings?-Yes; upon the greater number of their small holdings.

8057. And with spade labour?-Yes, with the spade, and the pick and shovel, such as the men can manage for themselves.

8058. Is not that a very antiquated way of cultivating the ground?-It may be antiquated, but I don't think there is any better way coming into operation.

8059. Is there not ploughing?-Ploughing won't because, if the ground of which these small crofts is composed is not broken up with the pick, it is of very little consequence to plough it. I could show examples of that in different parts of Shetland. Land ploughed is not half the value of land trenched, and the fisherman might trench a bit of land during winter for himself, and in the course of a few years grow all that he required, or the next thing to it, without costing the proprietor or anybody else anything.

8060. Would he grow a much heavier crop on land cultivated in that way with the spade, than a large farmer would if he ploughed his fields?-Yes, a much larger crop than a large farmer would if he ploughed that same field. I have not the slightest doubt of that.

8061. Are you speaking now from your own observation of both systems in Shetland?-I am.

8062. Do you know cases where an intelligent and active small crofter, cultivating in the way you have described with the spade, has grown heavier crops than a farmer, equally active and equally intelligent, has grown with plough cultivation?-Yes, upon the same kind of ground.

8063. Was that in this neighbourhood?-Yes.

8064. And the circ.u.mstances in both cases being exactly the same, except the difference between spade and plough cultivation?-I think the difference in that case would certainly be in favour of the larger cultivator; because I think the agricultural intelligence should be in favour of a man who works with the plough.

8065. You think the intelligence was perhaps superior in that case?-I think it was superior, and the crop inferior.

8066. Is that a thing which you have frequently observed?-Not very frequently, because land is not very frequently cultivated in the way I have mentioned, as the parties cultivating it, or who should cultivate it, don't have any security. They don't know who they are working for.

There is a man pretty near me (Mr Gifford knows him), who has been cultivating in the way I have mentioned, and there is another man pretty near here who is cultivating in the way that you speak of, and there is no comparison whatever between the crops.