Second Shetland Truck System Report Part 112

3999. Is it not the case that the majority of the fishermen employed by you are in debt to your shop?-It is not. In the case of Whalsay alone, I paid 1374 to the men when I settled with them. None of them are in debt, and they have usually large sums of money to get.

4000. That is to say, they are not in debt in December when they are settled with?-Yes; and during the next year, if they have occasion to get supplies from the shop while the fishing is going on, they get them, but they are not in debt, because they are getting fish daily; and their account, although not settled, is running in their favour. We would probably be in their debt if we were to settle with them at any time during the season.

4001. But before the spring fishing begins, do they not generally run up an amount of debt at the merchants shops?-Not generally.

I think the men generally take money to pay for anything they want.

4002. Is it the case that cash payments at these shops are more frequent about this season of the year, when the men have had their settlements lately over, than they are subsequently?-I think so, because they have money to pay for the articles they buy.

4003. Will the returns made by your shopkeepers of sales at the shops, or the accounts kept with the fishermen, show that?-The shopman's cash-book would show what the daily drawings were.

4004. Do you mean the daily drawings in cash?-Yes, the money.

4005. And you think the daily drawings in cash are probably larger at this season than at other times?-I should think so, because the people have more money in their hands.

4006. Then, if there is any truth in this statement, it must apply, in ordinary seasons, to the period after the fishing has begun?-Yes, it must apply to that; but the statement Mr. Hamilton makes, as to paying seamen's wages, is utterly untrue.

4007. It is true, I suppose, that agents are employed in Lerwick to secure the services of men for ships in the Greenland fishery?- Yes.

4008. Then the portion of that sentence which, I presume, you deny, is that the agents get little direct profit from their agency?- No; they do get little direct profit-only 21/2 per cent. on the wages and oil-money of the men.

4009. These agents are all shopkeepers, and most of them are proprietors of land themselves, or act land agents for others: is that so?-Yes, that is true.

4010. There are only three or four such agents in Lerwick- yourselves, while you continued to act in that way, Mr. Leask, Mr.

Tait who has now retired, and Mr Tulloch, of A. Laurenson & Co.?-Yes; Mr Tait has been succeeded, I believe, by Messrs.

Leisk and Sandison. There are no others that I know of.

4011. Mr. Hamilton says: 'The owners merely find the money to pay the wages of the men engaged. The agents manage everything else. The agents are, of course, interested in getting employment for those who are in their debt.' Is it the case, as a rule, that the men engaged for these Greenland voyages have been in debt?- No. It has been so difficult for many years now to get the men forward; that we have been very willing to take any man who would come, without regard to what part of the country he belonged to.

4012. But are the men so engaged frequently in debt to the shopkeeper who engages them?-No. I think you will see that from the copy of the letter which we wrote to one of the shipowners.

4013. Is it not true in point of fact, as stated here, that the agents supply the men's outfits?-We go to the custom-house with the men after they have been engaged, and we pay them their first month's advance in cash, and that first month's advance is repaid us by the owners of the ship. We cannot open an account in our books with any of these men unless we take the risk of the debt, because the terms of their agreement are that when they come back from their voyage, nothing is to be deducted from their wages except that first month's advance, and their monthly note, if they have one.

4014. But, as a matter of fact, are these men supplied with their outfit by the agent who engages them?-The men are quite at liberty to take their money, and get their outfit where they like.

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4015. Still, as a matter of fact, they are supplied with their outfit by the agent, are they not?-No. We have supplied them to a very small extent; the extract I have produced from our books shows the full amount we have supplied them with, not only for their outfit, but for their whole supplies during the season.

4016. Then, during the absence of these men do their families come to your shop frequently for supplies?-We cannot give them any supplies unless they have their monthly note, and if we give them any supplies, then we credit that note. If a man leaves a monthly note to supply his family during his absence with one-half of his wages, then his family can get supplied to that extent.

4017. You supply them, if they wish, to the amount of that note?- Yes, either cash or in goods. Many of the people, if they are living in the country, take these monthly notes and hand them over to some of their friends in the country, who transmit them to Lerwick and get the money for them.

4018. In that case, these notes are not taken out in the shape of goods from your shop?-No.

4019. Are you aware whether these monthly notes are ever taken out in name of the agents?-It is very possible they may be, when the men want that to be done.

4020. Has that occurred in your dealings with them?-I think so.

In some cases we get the monthly notes, and pay the value of them to the families as they become due, either in money or in goods.

4021. Whether is it more frequently in money or in goods that you have paid these notes to their families?-Some of the members of their families come into town with the monthly notes when they are due and they get the money.

4022. Or goods?-Or goods. If they want anything before the monthly note is due, they get goods, but it is very seldom that that is done. However, the result of our transactions with these men appears from the excerpt I have produced, which shows that the advances made did not come to 30s, while at settling we paid the men upwards of 10 each, in cash, taking them as a whole.

4023. When that sum of 10 is paid to them, is there a standing account against them at any of your shops?-No; the men are quite clear. For instance, in the case of the 'Labrador' for the past year, the men's wages and oil-money came, to 221, 7s. 4d., and we had not an account standing against any of them in our books.

4024. Do you state that in all cases referred to in that excerpt from your books, the sums stated as having been paid in cash were paid in full, and that at the time when they were paid there was no account due to your firm by the men?-Yes; there was not one farthing due when these sums were paid.

4025. Because it might very well happen that you had an account against them, although the cash was paid at the time in presence of the superintendent?-I understand what you mean, but the accounts will show that the men were all clear at the date of the payment.

4026. Is that at the date when the final releases were signed?-No.

The final release is only signed when they get their second payment of oil-money. The second payment of oil-money is comparatively trifling, only a few shillings to each man; and they have before then been paid up their whole earnings to within 10s.

or 15s. or 20s.

4027. Does the abstract account you have given in apply to the state of things at the date of the final discharge of the men?-I think it is taken from our books after the account of each ship was closed, except in the case of 1871, because we had not got their second payment of oil-money for that year, when the excerpt was made.

4028. Are all the accounts closed for 1870?-Yes.

4029. You mean that the men have got payment of the whole of their oil-money, including the second payment, for that year?- Yes; and we have now got the whole of their oil-money for 1871 also.

4030. Has the final release for 1871 be signed?-I suppose so; but I don't settle with the men personally. It is one of our clerks who does so. The part of the report to the Board of Trade which I wish particularly to refer to is this: 'It is true that the Board of Trade rules provide that "the balance to be paid to the man is the balance due on account of his voyage, deducting only such advances and allotments, as shall have been stipulated for in the agreement; and the value of such stores as may have been supplied to him personally during the voyage by the master." But no time is fixed for settlement, and the consequence is that it is the interest of the agent to delay it until he gets the man in debt to him again; and when he does pay to the man the balance of wages due to him before the superintendent, the man has no option but to hand it all back to the agent at once to whom he is indebted in an equal or greater amount; and I need hardly point out that it is clearly most important in the interests of the man, that he should not merely nominally, but actually receive his wages in cash, and be able to spend them as he likes.' That part of the report is not correct.'

4031. Is it not the case that the releases of the seamen are very frequently signed many months after the ship has arrived and discharged her men?-I have explained the reason for that in my statement. The men always go home whenever the ship arrives, and come back to settle as they find it convenient for themselves.

4032. But is it the case that it is often six or eight months afterwards before the settlement is made?-It is the case that the owners don't perhaps send down account of the oil that has been boiled until this time of the year, and sometimes after this time; but we pay the men before then nearly up to what we suppose the amount of oil will be. Any small sum that is left out is sometimes not paid until the ship comes out again in the following year.

4033. The time for engaging men for the Greenland voyage is in February or March?-Yes; in the end of February or beginning of March.

4034. And you state that in your business, as agents, there is no account running with any of these men during the period after the termination of the voyage, and before the last payment of oil-money?-There is no account running with them from the time when they settle finally until they engage again.

4035. Then, at the engagement, a new account is generally opened for the outfit?-No; we have nothing to enter against them when they engage again, but just the money we pay them at the custom-house. We charge them with the month's advance which we pay them there; that is the only entry we have against them. In one or two cases there may be more-perhaps a few shillings; but in the case of the 'Labrador,' which I have already referred to, we had not a sixpence marked against any man in the vessel.

4036. What is the main reason for taking the advance notes in name of the shipping agents?-I suppose the men prefer it, because it is just as convenient for them to hand the advance notes to the shipping agents as to any other one in Lerwick.

4037. But if the advance note is taken in the name of any of the man's friends, that would ent.i.tle them to get payment of so much of his wages from the shipping agent?-Yes; but the advance note must be addressed to an agent, because the owners of the ship are here to cash it, and the agent must pay it to somebody, either to the man's wife, or to any other one that she transfers it to.

4038. But what I asked was, whether these advance notes were not taken payable, not to wife, but to the shipping agent, himself?-I think not; it is either to the wife or to some of the man's friends.

4039. I understood you to say that sometimes they were made payable to the shipping agent?-They are payable by the shipping agent. It is the agent who has to pay them.

4040. But you say they are never made payable to him as well as by him, so that he has really the control over them, if they are handed to him?-He has [Page 101] the control over them He advances the money either to the wife or to any person that she sends for it.

4041. But, in point of fact, they are not made payable to him as well as by him?-They are made payable to his order.

4042. Do you say that these notes are not so taken by the shipping agent, that he gets the benefit of them and the control over them, and that the wife has no control over them whatever?-It is quite possible that may be done in some cases, but I cannot say.

4043. But that has not been done in your practice?-I shall send for one of the forms of these notes, and that will explain the matter better to you.

4044. I understand these advance notes and allotment notes are negotiable; at least they are indorsed by the seaman's wife as a receipt?-I suppose when they are brought to the merchant they are indorsed by her, and he pays the value of the note to anybody who brings it.